I think this is a pointless waste of time but as long as they don’t bother me, I don’t bother them. As I said, these people don’t do a lot so they are pretty easy to avoid. The problem is that some of these people like to evangelise and enforce their little rules on other people. Let’s call them the ‘Process Police’. This became a problem last year when someone set up a discussion email list for libertarian communists in Aotearoa/New Zealand. At first it went really well. There was a wide range of people young and old, from all sorts of different backgrounds, all discussing the issues of the day. The fact that the international Occupy movement had just begun also helped, as a lot of the list members were actively involved in several different Occupy groups around the country as well as following what was happening overseas.
Within a month the ‘Process Police’ announced they were not happy with the rules of the list. They wanted a much more formal process to be set up to make sure the list discussion did not lead to anyone being inadvertently oppressed. Several people opposed this on the grounds that it was unnecessary and in their experience tended to slow down and restrict discussion. This debate generated 40 emails in one day. I foolishly said this:
I think far too often we get hung up on sorting out processes for dealing with hypothetical situations where people might feel left out. personally I find 40+ messages about 'process' more off putting than anything else I have seen on this or other email lists. we are all grown ups and its only an email list. if
we can't operate a simple discussion list without first having a long winded discussion about how we will conduct our discussions then it is likely we we never get around to destroying the global capitalism and replacing with with something better.
The debate died down and then a few days later a Process Person popped up and announced that my post had broken the list rules by being oppressive (The list rules stated no racist or sexist language). She also accused the list admin person of being oppressive to her and breaking the list rules as well. She didn’t actually demand that he punish himself but I am sure she was hoping. She added that both of us were also very privileged. This person is a very articulate fulltime paid academic with post grad degrees in both science and humanities who owns her own home, so obviously knows a lot more about privilege than I ever will. The general gist of the argument that followed was that the people who were opposed to longwinded discussion of proposed internal group processes were privileged white men who did not like having their power threatened. The fact that several of the people who were most opposed to longwinded discussion of process were non-white men and women was inconvenient and therefore ignored. Ironically these people were the first to leave the list.
The Process Police genuinely believe any sort of organisation or meeting or email list, which does not have a particular sort of internal consensus based process which takes account of the latest in ‘Anti Oppression Theory’ can possibly be safe for various minorities to take part in. Any evidence that does not fit this theory must be ignored.
Anyway, the person who started the list got fed up and resigned, and the Process Police ended up taking over the running of the list. They immediately lost interest in any sort of process and everyone pretty much stopped discussing anything at all for months. Then a few people started using the list again, discussing various trade union activities, among other things. Still, the people who were now running the list made no effort to set up the process they were so keen on when others were running the list, until last week, when someone foolishly asked an innocent question.
An atheist parent asked for advice on dealing with a situation where he wanted his toddler to learn to speak Maori but the only place available in his area was also teaching a whole lot of religious/ spiritual stuff which he did not did not want his child to be exposed to. After months of silence from the Process Police, he was immediately attacked for “having complete disregard of people's spirituality”, and trying to restrict his child’s “self determination”. Then our academic jumped in and accused the original poster of being dismissive and arrogant (again, clearly an expert on the topic!), and accused him of not doing enough research into the issue. Surely if he had done more reading instead of just talking to his Maori partner and trying to have a polite discussion on the internet, he would not have held such unpleasant and intolerable views! Within a day, the list owners announced a new bottom line for list discussion (the only rule they have announced in the 8 months they have been responsible for the list).
If you "decide that Māori spirituality is only/always a metaphor, or that it is irrational nonsense or a bit iffy, you are supporting colonization”. (emphasis in the original text)
There it is in black and white. Certain topics are off limits and if anarchists express any other views (such as atheism) or even just fail to show enthusiasm for the approved views, they are guilty of oppression. I don’t know if anyone has replied or attempted to continue the debate because the moderators have now withheld all messages to the list in order to prevent the spread of any further oppressive ideas. This may all seem amazingly petty, and that is the problem with this sort of process politics. More time is spent on policing language than on discussing important issues. The Process Police seem to think that racism, sexism and all the other forms of bigotry out there are so ingrained in all of us that people of different races and genders cannot be trusted to have a conversation or talk about politics without close supervision by people like them (who have presumably gone through the appropriate workshops and training sessions).
This week, I attended two events that included powhiri and prayers. Although it doesn’t bother me if other people are into praying, it should not bother anyone that I am an atheist and therefore uninterested in it. This may surprise the Process Police, but I managed to get through both events without causing offence or needing supervision. I am currently part of a campaign group that is made up of mostly Maori, Pacific Island and Asian women (I won’t identify the group here in case the Process Police decide to come and interfere with it). There are three white men in the group and we don’t have a safer spaces policy or even a written internal process of any sort. We just make it up as we go along. For the Process Police this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, as they can’t imagine how a group like this could function. Out in the real world, people of different genders and ethnicities manage to work together quite often, without any problems. None of us need to be told how to behave and we are all grown ups. I’m sure we will have problems like any group, and we probably could tidy up our meeting process a bit, but we are all focused on what unites us and not our differences and as most of us have lives, we simply don’t have time to spend hours and hours on our internal processes.
I had hoped that a national email list could be used for interesting political discussions. There are a whole lot of big theoretical issues that anarchists and other radicals need to discuss, and I personally think the most important are those around indigenous sovereignty, nationalism, and land rights. Anarchists and other leftists really need to have a big discussion about these topics as the situation in this country is unlike any other and we can’t just go around taking ideas from North America or Europe. Equally we can’t just say “Oh it’s up to Maori, lets just leave it to them to sort out” which is a common reaction among some anarchists and is often used to avoid having to think about this stuff.
I am sure the Process Police would think that years of careful preparation and thought would be needed before ordinary mortals could be allowed to discuss these important issues. After all, even discussing options for non-spiritual childcare is off limits for fear of potentially being offensive to someone. This is just insulting rubbish, not to mention extremely patronising to members of minority groups who are quite capable of taking part in rational debate and do not need to be protected from other peoples opinions. Anarchism is about people running their own lives and making their own decisions. If we really believe this, then we can start by trusting people to think for themselves.
Seems to me that the actual political content of debate isn't so much the problem as some people insisting on being deliberately adversarial. Such as this post. If people are just wanting to have a go at each other, it doesn't matter what their ideas, processes and theories are, everyone is just wasting their time.
ReplyDeleteCheers
Sam Buchanan
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteSam, you are right in that it is not the content of the debate at all. it is about the way people are debating. I am quite into debate and would like it to happen. The reason I wrote the stuff above is because I am sick of any attempt at debate being turned into an argument about who has more right to speak on certain topics. Of course some people have more experience or understanding of an issue than other people, and of course we should respect that. But this does not mean that we should rank people by rigid race/gender/class/sexuality categories) and then decide that this determines which IDEAS are valid or invalid.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between them and me is that I understand that their undoubted frustration with me is pretty much the same as my frustration with them. They on the other hand have stated repeatedly that their frustration with these arguments is my fault because I am being oppressive, and my frustration is also my fault, and less valid then theirs because it is caused by my inability to accept that I am being oppressive (by disagreeing with them). It is a circular argument, which is set up to ensure that you cannot possibly win. Pointing this out is seen as a sign of being “unwilling to admit you are wrong, and not [being] open to learning” (direct quote from a member of Beyond Resistance today).
The experience of the list seems to be that the process police types think this is the way to do a debate and therefore it is a waste of time trying to work with them. So, yes I am being deliberately adversarial. I do not want to be work with them in any way as they are authoritarian bullies who think and act more like religious fundamentalists than libertarian communists. You are quite keen on arguing with Leninists or right wing libertarians who claim to have some affinity with anarchism despite being deeply authoritarian, and this is a good thing. I consider these pseudo radicals to be on the same level. They should not expect to be able to claim they are interested in libertarian communism or anarchism without being challenged. Mark
Seems to me you are deliberately exaggerating the attitudes of the so-called 'process police', something you often seem to do when commenting on problems within the anarchist movement, and acting in the same way as the people you are complaining about. On an e-mail list recently you complained about people making comments that you alleged were aimed at shutting people up, then immediately said people who thought comments were racist or sexist shouldn't say so. Either everyone is free to speak their mind, or everyone has to be careful not to offend people - you can't demand that people don't say things you disagree with while insisting on the right of people to say things you agree with.
ReplyDeleteCheers
Sam
my point was that continually attempting to win arguments by throwing around accusations of racism/sexism etc whenever you disagree with someone you perceive as more privileged than you is done to shut people up rather than to discuss issues. Mark
DeleteMight be sometimes, or it might be that people genuinely think something is racist or sexist. By all means stay out of forums when you don't respect the participants enough to engage over such matters.
Deletecheers
Sam
"There it is in black and white. Certain topics are off limits and if anarchists express any other views (such as atheism) or even just fail to show enthusiasm for the approved views, they are guilty of oppression."
ReplyDeleteExcept you missed out the bit before the statement you are critiquing which said "if you are being authoritative about it (from the outside)...".
In other words, non-Maori should not try and make authoritative statements about things that pertain to Maori. The moderators said it was OK to discuss them, to state your own position, etc. They didn't say you couldn't say you were atheist or express other views at all.
Cheers
Sam
What dreadful racists these extreme cultural relativists are, with their assumption that Polynesians are delicate
ReplyDeletecreatures incapable of mixing it with palangi in intellectual and political debate. I hope a few of them make it along to the screening of Tongan Ark tonight at the Wellington Film Fest: if they do, they'll find Futa Helu and other Tongan intellectuals crashing into religion, condemning what they consider to be oppressive aspects of traditional Polynesian religion, and making the case for the fusion of the best parts of Polynesian and - gasp! - Greek intellectual traditions.
When I argue with some of the thinkers of Futa Helu's 'Atenisi school, I often find myself accusing them of being overtly Eurocentric, and defending the value of certain traditional Tongan concepts. Sam writes, in apparent seriousness, that:
'non-Maori should not try and make authoritative statements about things that pertain to Maori'
Since the history of New Zealand over the last couple of centuries is the history of Maori-Pakeha interaction, how on earth can we talk about anything, if we can't talk about subjects that 'pertain to Maori'? I've written a lot about the New Zealand Wars: did I err in this, given that these conflicts obviously 'pertain to Maori'? I've written about the poetry of Hone Tuwhare, who was, the last time I checked, a Maori: should I apologise? I've written and spoken about the attempts to distort the prehistory of New Zealand by racist outfits like the Celtic New Zealand cult: should I have gotten permission from someone down in Wellington first?
There are certainly esoteric parts of most cultures, which outsiders cannot or should not write about. I've turned down the opportunity to look at some letters written by Te Kooti which turned up in an archive, because I wouldn't know what to make of them, being an outsider to his Ringatu faith and to his world in general.
But the notion that we can't have a negative opinion on something like Polynesian religion for fear of being colonialists really is absurd, and an insult to outspoken Polynesian atheists like Tuwhare, Helu and his successors, and Keri Hulme.
How about arranging a screening of Tongan Ark for Wellington's anarchist community, Mark? It might break down a few of the tapu of the process police...
Cheers
Scott
It does bug me when people can't read plain English. I didn't say anybody can't talk about subjects that pertain to Maori, I said that other people were saying 'non-Maori should not try and make authoritative statements about things that pertain to Maori'. Can't you understand the difference between talking about something and making authoritative statements about something? Seems simple enough.
DeleteThe people in question specifically said it was OK to discuss being atheist and why that means you have problems with religion, of any sort or ethnic origins, so why pretend there's a problem when there isn't? Just out to have an argument? Or an excuse to disengage?
Cheers
Sam
Sorry for being snarky, being misrepresented really pisses me off, especially when my comments are there in plain black and white (or black and beige to be accurate).
Delete"But the notion that we can't have a negative opinion on something like Polynesian religion for fear of being colonialists really is absurd"
Couldn't agree more, but who is proposing this notion? Nobody I know, and certainly not the people Marky is grumbling about.
Cheers
Sam
Scott I nearly went to the Tongan Ark, but I had another appointment, I was in the theatre drinking beer just before it started and as I was leaving the place was rapidly filling up with hundreds of Tongans all keen to see the film. I will have to get it on video eventually. mark
DeleteHere's an example of what I thought was an interesting debate about the meaning of religion in Polynesian culture:
ReplyDeletehttp://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2011/12/boarding-ark.html
It has happened after the test screening of Tongan Ark, when the second generation 'Atenisi intellectual 'Okusitino Mahina had a crack at his old mentor Futa Helu and his contemporary 'Opeti Taliai for being too dismissive about the role of tapu in Polynesian society.
'Okusi felt that those who simply dismiss tapu as a tool of the ruling classes of stratified Polynesian societies like Tonga are being too crude, and that other aspects of the phenomenon need to be considered.
In the comments thread under the post I took up the cudgels for 'Okusi against Paul Janman, the maker of Tongan Ark, and Michael Horowitz, a former Director of 'Atenisi, who both favour Futa Helu and 'Opeti Taliai's interpretation of tapu.
It's more fun to debate ideas than proscribe them.
Cheers
Scott
I'd agree with a lot of what Mark says, and I am glad someone has said it - particularly welcome is the attempt to situate those kind of politics as a politics of defeat (and defeatism!), and the retreat inward/rejection of all movements and 'activism'. But I don't see a need to stoop to their level of personalised accusations!
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I think several things are being missed out here:
This type of 'process police' identity politics has driven so many people away from radical politics in recent years, and that is a shame, and why I think this sort of politics should not become dominant in radical circles.
So many people find it offputting to be jumped on/denounced for holding the wrong view or taking the wrong action on something, that they either leave (and their must dozens if not hundreds of peoples) or shut up and don't ever want to contribute/do things. And I've seen it happen to not only to Pakeha males, but to women, migrants, queers, transpeople and so on. And hence so many projects and 'activism' just stop, even many worthwhile ones. Why get involved in something if you are just going to get denounced for it? I find the whole atmosphere of the anarchist scene (including Beyond Resistance) is stifling, painful, righteous, uptight, unwelcoming and frankly authoritarian. One situ group from the US humorously called it 'the Stalinist of everyday life' where an 'internal terror' is inflicted on people through constant self-criticism sessions and examination of your own 'privilege' and how you oppress others. How many people have experienced walking into a place/meeting, and feeling that you are immediately unwelcome before you even say something, and then anything you say or do is being savagely judged and that you are constantly in the wrong and walking on eggshells? I think that is a very common experience, and most leave quickly. The 'anarchist' scene has shrunk from many dozens of people (some say even 100 or 200) to a tiny little scene of perhaps two dozen, which is getting smaller all the time as more people leave or are excluded), while the Leninist groups generally grow.
I don't think politics should be based on pain and the constant fear of being wrong. It all seems pretty fundamentalist to me, even if some big and vital issues are being addressed and challenged.
One thing about identity politics is that it can never gain broad appeal, and that is why I think it is elitist. Identity claims are based on some type of injury or suffering, often a dramatic suffering of some kind. But I don't think identity politics will ever have a broad appeal because if you are working class you suffer continuously and the one thing that you do not want to display is your injury and your suffering. You want to display your capacity to survive and endure, to struggle against and to overcome. To celebrate your injury, suffering, pain, or victimhood does not work for the vast vast majority of the working-class.
Also, forgot to add it is not all about process, but also content (e.g. the debate between those who think class/'classism' is just one 'oppression' among many to be oppossed on a moralistic/idealistic level, think politics are mostly based on culture and cultural values, and think that those who reject identity politics neglect/reject other forms of oppression and have a pitiful understanding of colonialism, feminism, anti-racism etc; and those who think class is not a form of oppression but is a form of exploitation that is central to capital (but does not explain everything, and opposing other forms of oppression are also central), and these forms of exploitation and oppression need to be opposed on a materialistic rather than idealistic level, and everyday concrete points of resistance in the home, community and workplace ought to be built upon - and thus try to avoid moralistic holier than thou politics.
ReplyDeleteThis is a time honoured and worthy debate, and to be fair both side can learn from each other, but I don't think that is going to happen in NZ at the moment and for the next 5 years at least.
- vomiting diamonds
I think much of what you say is an exaggeration, but I agree with the general thread. The problem is that so many seem to now react against any discussion of process, or issues such as racism and sexism within movements, with a degree of hysteria.
DeleteCheers
Sam
Hi all, the blogger software hold for moderation any comments posted here more than two weeks after the post, which in this case is good cos it meant I was able to remove the names from this post by Jared, which are now in square brackets.. Please respect pseudonyms, as some posters here use them so they can keep their jobs - Mark
ReplyDeleteanyway here is Jared's comment:
It might be worth posting some more of the statement we as moderators posted, because there's some real mis-quoting or quoting out of context happening here. It also doesn't help that the full debate can't be seen here, and that comments in response to this blog are based on Mark's narrative of what happened. But anyway, here's what we wrote:
"The point is not that topics are off limits, it’s that we need to be aware what perspective we are approaching a topic from—and how these can effect others.
If you are approaching Māori culture from the outside it is helpful to be aware (a) you probably don’t understand it very well/aren’t in a position to be authoritative about it and (b) if you are being authoritative about it (from the outside) eg. deciding that Māori spirituality is only/always a metaphor, or that it is irrational nonsense or a bit iffy, you are supporting colonization. You are participating in a longstanding practice, one which has been and continues to be supported by the state and which ties in with economic processes, of non-Māori (specifically people of European descent) taking away the self-determination of Māori.
It is possible to engage with Māori culture, from the outside. It just requires awareness of your own location in that discussion and your impact on others."
It's clear there's space for discussion, but like grown ups in the real world, we don't just spout random or unthoughtful comments to people we work with in practice, Why change that in the virtual realm?
(PS the charge of poor moderation is a cheap one. NO ONE on that list bothered to offer to moderate once [the original list owner] had left, nor has anyone offered to help run or maintain it, which, I might add, was originally a BR list before we closed and merged it with [The original list owner's] proposal. Philip and then myself, stepped in to keep the list alive. There wasn't much discussion that needed to be moderated, and once it did, we acted. That's hardly a fault).
Secondly, the whole notion of 'winning' debate is obviously not coming from a willingness to take on new knowledge or to build praxis. It's an adversary-type position that is totally unhelpful. If I'm trying to 'beat' you, how are we going to work together?
Lastly, there's so much here that I could reply to, but I really don't have the time or energy to discuss all this any more. It seems we've all some some serious baggage from our time in the anarchist 'scene' (something I try to avoid) which affects our perspectives. But I totally agree with [Vomiting Diamonds'] point about finding the everyday concrete points of resistance under capital. For me, this has to include an analysis of one's relation to capital, which is based on their material conditions, which in turn, is influenced by one's identity. This is exactly what Beyond Resistance is trying to do — to find the material interest in our everyday lives. That this is being labelled 'identity politics' misses the mark completely (I'm not saying you have done this [Vomiting Diamonds], it's just the way the discussion has been framed sometimes, which I think misses the point).
Jared
Jared, do you have any thoughts on why your criticism of the original list process and eventual replacement with BR members process led to many people leaving the list and a drastic reduction in the diversity of opinions being posted, which was presumably the opposite to what you were intending? As Vomiting Diamonds pointed out, the sort of politics you promote in the name of being more inclusive, seems to be having the opposite effect, with far fewer active people and groups and far less activity than say ten years ago, even compared to other equally tiny far left sects! Mark
ReplyDeleteMy apologies for using names in my original post.
ReplyDeleteRe your question. I don't have any kind of stats for who has left the list, or for post activity, but to my mind there's only been 4 or 5 people leave—if that—and only the original list owner sited reasons related to 'the sort of politics you promote'. It seems that the opposite is the case: there are far more people on the list that simply do not post to it, because of the reason's I originally brought up when it started (gender balance, dominance of Pakeha, academic level or theoretical vigor (perceived or real)).
I'm not sure what you mean by diversity of opinions either, because there has been, and continues to be, discussions related to the original purpose of the list, which is the discussion of libertarian communist ideas and practice. Maybe you could elaborate on what you mean? If anything, the list is like anything in life, in that sometimes there's a flurry or activity, and sometimes it's quiet. I don't think that discussion of power and process way back has significantly affected the list (for example www.libcom.org reported that it's forums are the quietest they've been in years).
However, even if those original discussions on process (and content, I might add, as it's equally about what is being said), I personally am not worried. For a starter, that list is a very select and small segment of the left in NZ. Indeed, it was set up that way—to be a place for those with shared ideological convictions, ie libcom. Within that small segment is another small segment, those who are Maori or those who are women. If, in order to balance out the playing field of the list so that those in the minority have an equal chance to participate, we ruffled the feathers of those who aren't in such a minority position, then I'm not too phased. We live in a world where it's very easy to be male and white, and to have a voice. If that was made harder for some within the very small space that is an email list, well, it's likely that things would have ended up the way they did.
I'd like to address this notion of 'the politics you promote', because I'm not sure what that means. This is probably the cause of some confusion, because it seems we often are at cross purposes. It's also a massive net thrown over a vast array of activity over the last ten years, not to mention a judgement on what equates to meaningful activity being imposed. What I mean is your model of organising, or what you perceive to be the way forward, may not be shared by myself or others. So just because BR or whatever doesn't fit what you'd like to be doing doesn't mean its not relevant—it just doesn't match up to what you'd like to be doing.
For example, I don't believe in anarchist organisations purely based on ideological agreement. I also don't equate the growth of organisations (political or otherwise) with class struggle, or activity for that matter. BR is not about numbers, nor is it a propaganda group designed to spread the gospel of anarchism (so being a 'small left sect' is not a problem to me because it's purely for those who are members—it's not meant to be anything else). So it might be good to have some discussions around what we mean by 'meaningful activity'. I wrote something on this on my blog.
Also, the low period of struggle over the last 10 years surely can't be the fault of the activist scene or a small group's 'politics'. There's more factors at stake than that, including class composition and the current nature of capital, the loss (or negative perception) of a worker's identity, to name but a few. To think that 'the politics you promote' has such a huge effect on the nature of class struggle in NZ is to equate our group's actions with class struggle, which I think is problematic.
I am not saying that the obvious lack of class struggle in NZ today is the fault of the activist scene or BR’s politics. That would be silly. I am arguing that even given the tiny number of people involved in far left groups, it is noticeable that the “anti oppression theory”/process politics stuff that you and other are into, has failed to achieve what it sets out to do, in that it has not produced a more diverse movement and has not made it easier for minorities to get involved in anarchist groups. It has driven a lot of people away, including, as I keep pointing out, the very minorities it is supposedly trying to protect. Surely that suggests a major problem??
DeleteYou can avoid having to think about that problem by continuing to believe that the only people who disagree with you are angry white men which somehow proves you are on the right track, or you could admit that your theory may not match what is happening in the real world.
You are right that most people on the list did not and do not post regularly, that is common on most email lists, but you assume that this is because you haven’t done enough to help minorities to contribute. You also assume (wrongly) that the people who did not agree with you were white men. As I have said before, the first to leave were women and Maori who hate this sort of patronising politics. One person (part pacific islander if it matters, and a libertarian communist with 30 years of anti racist activism behind him) described it as “politically correct claptrap” and “interminable angst-driven sensitivity-searching” before also leaving the list. Anytime anyone opposes the process that you try to impose on everyone else you pretend they are all just angry white men who can be safely ignored. So it is hardly surprising that the people who left didn’t contact you and give their reasons for leaving.
The wider debate about what sort of stuff anarchists should be doing is something I will rant about in a separate post or even in the next issue of that anarchist magazine with a very silly name.
Having only been around in anarchist politics since 2008, I can’t gauge what the movement used to be like. So I honestly don’t know whether there are less people involved, or if people have left. Also Welly is very different to CHCH. From my experience we’ve lost people in BR due to an unwillingness to see patriarchy as a core component to capitalism. To me that is the issue here—it’s not that ‘oppression theory’ or ‘process politics’ (whatever that means, as the terms are broad and can encompass a range of positions ie just like communism—you still haven’t defined them) are driving people away in huge numbers. Instead, a clinging to 19th and 20th century concepts of class struggle has meant people in BR left.
ReplyDeleteI mean, ‘process politics’ are not just for process politics’s sake. There’s a concrete reason why communist struggle has to factor in how capital uses oppression to keep alive. If it’s true that capitalism is the latest manifestation of patriarchy, and that it is based on social relations, then class struggle (the abolition of class and the value form) has to be based on relationships. It’s easy to forget that outside of mass struggle the ‘mass’ doesn’t actually exist—in reality the ‘mass’ is made up of smaller interlinked networks, based on relationships. So, if class struggle is based on smashing capitalist-patriarchy relations, then we need to address how we relate to each other, with the knowledge that we experience exploitation differently thanks to one’s material position under capitalism (identity, for example). If this is seen as ‘clap-trap’ and ‘sensitivity-searching’ then I’m not sure we have the same conception of class struggle, and probably need to discuss that further (instead of reverting back to generalizations and blanket statements). Discussion of this content is something I hope the list can provide.
A quick reply becos I don't have much time. Certainly I don't reject seeing patriarchy (and racism and colonialism) as core components of capital, and i think the interrelationship between capital and male domination is certainly a vital area, and needs to be consistently addressed (something that i've only done occassionally). No doubt there are many valuable debates to be had and much to learn from my point of view. And I don't reject 'minorities' (isn't that an old fashioned term that was rejected in the past?) having a fair say and being treated with respect, and being welcomed and not excluded.
ReplyDeleteBut to get to the core of the matter from my point of view. What i'm rejecting is a certain dogmatism whereby some people seem to think their way (on both process/form and content) is the only way, and that if you question or reject their way, then you are being oppressive/patriarchical/racist and so on. This is a logical fallacy, and i think what Mark was getting at when he is talking about the circular argument. For example, i think consensus decision making is a limited form of direct democracy that is only applicable and relevant in some situations, but not in others. ie. it is not a one size fits all solution to process, and it is wrong to fetishise it as the solution. Does that make me an enemy of 'minorities'? Does rejecting having an email list being facilitated make me an oppressor of 'minorities' because I found it impractical and gave too far much power and control to the facilitators, and (rightly or wrongly) i saw it as a means by which the sort of ultra-judgmental 'stalinism of everyday life' politics would be insitutionalised? Maybe I was wrong, I dunno, but it was based on my past experience with people from that scene (and the highly personalised denouncing full of psychological manipulation I and others got just confirms my experience).
So I think the core problem is that some people assume that other people HAVE to totally adopt their particular way of doing things or identity politics (or mixture of identity politics and other ideologies) or else you are being oppressive. It all seems a bit clique-like and christian and 'essentialist' to me, and you had to go thru all the cleansing rituals of admitting you are an evil oppressor, admitting your guilt, saying you will change, and so on, as prescribed on the list. But surely because I don't think politics should be based on guilt and moralism does not make me an oppressor/oppressive?
Also Jared, your posts contain many, many innacuracies about the list but I'm reluctant to point em out as I really don't think the list was of much importance or value at all. But for the record Philip did step forward on the list and offer to become a moderator after the owner left, and it was never meant to be an official BR list or tied to any one organisation (i believe BR said they would keep their own list going to see how the list developed). In retrospect the list would have worked much better if it had nothing to do with any one org or clique. - Vomit diamonds
So, was there a political debate within BR about the nature of capitalism and patriarchy, and 19th and 20th century concepts of class struggle, with each side arguing their case, followed by a vote or a formal split? what sort of democratic debate causes the majority of the group to leave and a minority staying? Have the people who left BR given this important political dispute over the nature of patriarchy and class struggle as their reason for leaving? Or did they simply get fed up and frustrated with the endless criticism and thoroughly unpleasant judgmental atmosphere of the group? Shall we ask them?
ReplyDeletenope. I only left cos I moved cities and prefer my political engagegment to be face to face. Personally I found BR to be a breath of fresh air after the Welly scene :)
Deletex @
Hey Mark. I don't want to talk about the conflict in BR too much publicly because it was pretty intense, and still has rammifications for relationships in CHCH. Also I'm not sure how much you know already, so I don't want to assume that you know the details. But I'm not sure where you get notions of democratic debate and majorities from, or how you could be aware of the atmosphere of the group? Without naming names, we've had 5 members leave recently, all for different reasons that again, I don't want to air publicly. So feel free to ask these members why they left the group — you're bound to get diverse answers. I'm also happy to talk to you about it privately if you are interested in knowing, for constructive reasons, the origins of the conflict. Because the way you're framing it sounds like some kind of personal attack on BR, which I'm not too sure why that would be?
ReplyDeletefair enough, will continue this in private emails.
DeleteHey VD. Sorry if I was inaccurate re the list. As I understood the original proposal, it was to be a list for discussion of libertarian communism or for libcommers', to be maintained by the original owner, someone from BR, and someone from AWSM. BR would then end our list after the libcom one got going (which we did, although that was our own collective choice and not a prerequisite). When the original owner left, Philip came on board (as I said), and now I'm helping out, simply because Philip felt overwhelmed by the task. I'd certainly step aside if others wanted to help out so that there wasn't any kind of power bloc being fermented.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I agree with what you're saying about the problem of one size fits all solutions, or forcing approaches on others. But without going back to those original discussions, I felt it was nowhere near as clear cut as "rejecting having an email list being facilitated make me an oppressor of 'minorities' because I found it impractical and gave too far much power and control to the facilitators, and (rightly or wrongly) i saw it as a means by which the sort of ultra-judgmental 'stalinism of everyday life' politics would be insitutionalised?" If anything, it was a discussion on the topic that (surprise...) got ugly, and which saw some nasty comments go down. It sucks that happened, for sure, and it sucks people left. But leaving was voluntary, so it would be a jump to suggest one way was enforced on others. That's my view anyway, and of course it would be different to others.
'if you are being authoritative about it (from the outside) eg. deciding that Māori spirituality is only/always a metaphor...you are supporting colonization'
ReplyDeleteIf this piece of silliness were adhered to as a rule, then Jared's list would be off-limits to anyone who wanted to criticise the Celtic New Zealand 'theory', and the various other whites-were-here-first conspiracy theories which are doing the rounds on the far right at the moment.
After all, the whites-first theories rely on the claim that supernatural entities like turehu (white-skinned fairies) and supernatural culture-heroes like Maui actually existed. Folks like Martin Doutre, Noel Hilliam, and John Ansell claim that turehu were actually white men, and that Maui was
a white navigator with superpowers.
Critics of the whites-first theories point out that turehu, like taniwha, are mythical rather than real creatures, and that Maui, like Achilles or Odysseus, is a mythical figure.
By Jared's strange criterion, though, this sort of argument counts as 'colonization', because it considers the figures of Maori traditional religion and folklore metaphorical rather than real.
When Jared Davidson came out with his 'art is evil - give it up' polemic a few years ago, a lot of us up here thought we'd never heard anything so ridiculous. He's excelled himself, though, with his new proscription.
Cheers
Scott
Hi Scott,
ReplyDeleteI'm the other moderator for the list in question... I don't know everyone who is on it tho, so maybe you are too?
I don't want to rehash what has happened on the list in this forum because I feel like its not fair on others on the list and it has to some extent been resolved. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things...
I actually wrote the line that is being attributed to Jared although he endorsed it and we sent it out as a moderation team. It could perhaps have been explained better (although context always helps!) but the point I was trying to communicate is not that non-Māori should never talk about Māori culture ... but they should acknowledge their position outside of it, think about how much they actually know, listen to people who have more experience, and - key for me - avoid making value judgements and telling Māori what we should do with out own culture.
I think it is possible to get quite nuanced about this question, with non-Māori who have some experience engaging with te ao Māori, but that isn't really the case on that list.
I don't particularly want to have a conversation about this here but I wanted to clarify a bit, particularly because I actually enjoy your writing about colonisation and just the other day was suggesting people on that list read it if they want to start thinking in a deeper way about how colonisation and capitalism work together.
Feel free to email me (Scott or anyone else who wants to discuss that list! Constructively - not just to give me a hard time : ) pew35@uclive.ac.nz
Cheers,
Philip
As I said though, Philip, if we took on board your suggestions that non-Maori avoid treating Maori religion as metaphorical rather than real, then we'd never be able to critique the most virulent strain of anti-Maori racism currently abroad in this country.
ReplyDeleteI don't know of any detailed rebuttal of the Celtic NZ/whites-were-here-first nonsense which hasn't included an argument that entities like turehu were mythical rather than real.
Your new suggestion that non-Maori should avoid making value judgements of any kind about Maori culture would be even more damaging to open debate that your earlier suggestion concerning religion. If we adopted your suggestion as a rule we wouldn't be able to criticise Tariana Turia for saying that class isn't a Maori issue; we'd have to bite our lips when the Iwi Leadership Group defended its friendliness with John Key's government by saying that capitalism was a core Maori value; we wouldn't be able to help expose the Ko Huiarau cult, which uses phony appeals to Maori tradition to take money off its supporters.
There is a real history of discrimination against Maori religion - the Suppression of Tohungaism Act is a notorious example. We should, of course, insist that Maori have the right to practice whatever religion they want without being discriminated against. But insistence on religious freedom and a secular society doesn't have to mean avoidance of the critical discussion of religion.
Over the past decade there's been a good deal of bigotry directed towards Muslims in this country, with mosques and halal butcher shops occasionally being vandalised, and demented local right-wing bloggers suggesting Islam should be banned here. The left should oppose, and indeed has opposed, anti-Muslim bigotry, but it would be quite wrong for us to go from defending the right of Muslims to practice their religion in peace to saying that anyone who criticises the tenets of Islam is an anti-Muslim bigot.
I think that most Muslims would be insulted by the idea that we were avoiding any critical reference to their beliefs out of the idea that we might oppress them by disagreeing with them. From what Mark says, it sounds like some the Maori on your list were annoyed by the suggestion that their traditional religion was off limits to critical discussion.
Philip,
ReplyDeleteI was personally pretty stunned by this new 'bottom line' from you and Jared. Could you clarify exactly what you mean by it? Because as I understood it, you're saying that if someone doesn't believe in the literal truth of Maori religion, then that person is supporting colonisation.
If this is what you mean then it really sums up what Mark and VD are trying to get at, that seemingly minor differences of opinion get used as a springboard for making personalised denunciations. You said you think this issue has been resolved, but as far as I'm concerned it hasn't been resolved at all. Whats actually happened is that most people can't be bothered arguing anymore when the result is that they get attacked.
You also make a comment about the gender & ethnicity of the people who have posted to the list. But how many of them have you actually met?
Olly
Hey Scott and Olly (and anyone else),
ReplyDeleteI'm more than happy to discuss your questions but I would rather not do it here. My email address in my last post, please feel free to get in touch.
Philip
This is probably something that should be discussed on the list, but I can't understand how you can draw that conclusion from whay Phillip said. The point was made that colonists making defining and absolutist statements about Maori culture is part of the colonial process. Now that may be debatable, but it's far from saying people are supporting colonisation unless they believe in the literal truth of Maori religion.
ReplyDeleteI think its fair to say the original poster (on the list) was attacked - I don't think anybody else has been.
Cheers
Sam Buchanan
I don't think it's the mechanics of an obscure e mail list which are worthy of discussion, Phil, but the broader question of whether or not criticism of or support for Maori traidional religion is ipso facto reactionary or progressive.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone see Colin James on TV3's The Nation this morning, explaining Maori opposition to asset sales on the grounds of their 'animist' attitude to things like water, and their lack of grounding in the Enlightenment? That was a glaring example of the reactionary invocation of traditional Maori religion!
Hi Scott,
ReplyDeleteI don't want to make general pronouncements about the way that all people everywhere should talk about Māori spirituality (spiritualities?). I guess non-Māori have to work that out where they are, with respect for the Māori they have relationships with.
What I am interested in is creating a space (at the moment trying to do that on the obscure email list : ) where there is room for Māori to talk about class struggle without having to put up with non-Māori telling us exactly what that will look like. Some people disagree with how Jared and I are managing that - which is why I put up my email address - to try and be accountable to them.
Anyway, fair enough that you are not interested in our email list! If you want to talk about the question in a broader context would be happy to email about that as well.
Cheers,
Philip
"the broader question of whether or not criticism of or support for Maori traidional religion is ipso facto reactionary or progressive"
ReplyDeleteI don't think this was the question under discussion on the list. It was clearly stated that people weren't expected to support or agree with Maori religion. The Colin James quotes and the 'Celtic NZ' nonsense are examples of the sort of comment people were being asked not to make. It was just asking non-Maori not to rule on Maori traditions, regardless of whether people's opinions were pro or anti or anything else.
cheers
Sam Buchanan